And by the way, everything in life is writable about if you have the outgoing guts to do it, and the imagination to improvise. The worst enemy to creativity is self-doubt. - Sylvia Plath
About
From: Yorkville, Illinois, United States
About me: I'm a follower of the way of Christ, currently engaged in planting an emerging church in Yorkville, Illinois. I'm originally from Austin, Texas, and I attended Wheaton College where I met my husband Mike while attaining degrees in English, History and Intercultural Studies. I'm passionate about social justice, emerging christianity, gender equality, and really good Tex-Mex food. I also enjoy quilting, scrapbooking, fantasy/sci-fi novels, attending Renaissance Faires, playing Settlers of Catan, and spending time with my daughter, Emmaline Eowyn.
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New Blog
Done! Enjoy your new digs!
I hope your move was a good one. I'll start checking out your new site.
Join the Revolution
a love revolution indeed - of course the world, well the western version, would argue that they have got one of those going on already as well - self love. For me the hardest thing i find is stopping loving myself to start loving others. I find it in ordinary life it is not at all romantic and a lot of hard work!
I've just been riffing on all saints over the last few days and i've found some inspiration in people who ground out a life of love even when they felt more like the grinds themselve... I want to say yes, but so often I trip over my own complacency and fear....
Come Holy Spirit come Token Gestures and True Justice thanks, Julie. Yes, a lot of companies spend far more on PR stuff blowing their own trumpets about what they are doing to save the environment, liberate the oppressed and so on than they spend on actually doing those things.
Back in the apartheid days I heard a radio interview with a oil company executive about all the things they were doing to fight apartheid, and gave an address to write to.
I wrote, and back came an expensive glossy booklet about how they were helping schools and so on.
I suggested that if they really wanted to fight apartheid, they could issue free bumper stickers to motorists with slogans like "One man one vote now" and "Ballots not bullets".
Black motorists would have loved them, but of course they would not dare to stick out their necks like that -- the government might cancel lucrative contracts, to say the least.
No, they would rather print glossy brochures to persuade their overeseas investors not to disinvest. Julie,
Thanks for this post. I wonder if this trend is merely a reflection of what happens within our churches. Aren't these corporations copying the actions of churches? Haven't we replaced our call to follow Christ and champion justice with a meek form of self-serving charity designed to bring in more members? Since the idea of Justice was stripped from the message of our religions doesn't it make sense that the public followed along?
We should try to force these corporations to favor justice but maybe we should also focus on retooling our religions so that we are providing proper motivation. Until our religions champion justice, our government and our corporate interests never will. Halloween 2007 Safe and Ethical Toys? Thanks for this post Julie. I hope you don't mind if I link to it from my blog as this is a topic I have been thinking about for a while.
I have been a silent follower (lurker?) on your blog for a while now. I particularly appreciate your posts on social justice issues- it's nice to find others out there in the blogosphere who have similar values. So, I just finished reading A Year Without "Made in China": One Family's True Life Adventure in the Global Economy by Sara Bongiorni. I don't agree entirely with the book, however it was interesting that virtually every toy in our stores is being made in China. Legos are made in Denmark? Uh - not so fast - they are now being outsourced to, you guessed it, China.
Puts all of us parents in a bind if we want to find ethically made toys. It's not China I object to - it's the way the toys are made and by whom that is the problem.
Good luck with Christmas, Julie! Thanks, Julie - I'm really close to letting this be "burst the bubble Christmas" at our house, as we find out that the Grinch runs the North Pole and it's all been a ruse. Nobody believes me when I tell them this, but I remember having conversations with my parents around the dinner table and we talked about this very thing happening when Nixon opened relations with China in the 70's.
I'm going to swear ... this is just bullshit. We cannot go to war over this crap in Iraq and then condone it and buy it from China. Fascism is fascism is fascism and I don't care where it is or who's in charge.
Okay, rant over ... sorry, I have an almost 14 year old daughter and the thought of girls her age being forced into labor and treated that way makes me see red. It's not just toys that you can't buy without the Made In China sticker ... there's practically nothing that doesn't have that horrible sticker on it these days. Our economy would collapse were it not for slavery. Think on that ... Nobody believes me when I tell them this, but I remember having conversations with my parents around the dinner table and we talked about this very thing happening when Nixon opened relations with China in the 70's.
I'm going to swear ... this is just bullshit. We cannot go to war over this crap in Iraq and then condone it and buy it from China. Fascism is fascism is fascism and I don't care where it is or who's in charge.
Okay, rant over ... sorry, I have an almost 14 year old daughter and the thought of girls her age being forced into labor and treated that way makes me see red. It's not just toys that you can't buy without the Made In China sticker ... there's practically nothing that doesn't have that horrible sticker on it these days. Our economy would collapse were it not for slavery. Think on that ... Like Karen mentioned, I don't have a problem with "Made in China" per se. To me outsourcing isn't the problem, people need jobs. It is the quality of those jobs that present the problem. When Mattel can get waivers to pay below minimum wage for China, there are some serious greed and oppression issues occuring. And what makes me even more sick is that after evil like this is exposed the response by the companies is not to reform but to shut down the factories and terminate jobs, they save face but still end up hurting people. So What's Your Excuse? Thank you for this excellent post. I'm passing it forward - much to chew on! well said Julie- I think this has become my life message- and if you read the great commission in the correct way it reads- as you go- disciple- it is a call to being! John Stott has good thoughts on seeing the great commission in this light. He says that he used to argue (and argued at the first Lausanne conference on world evangelism) that evangelism was the primary way to understand the great commission and social action was justified only if it was in service to evangelism. But he now sees it differently, and argues that evangelism and social justic, acts of service and mercy and stewardship, are co-equal partners in the mission of the church, with neither taking a back seat to the other.
Stott focuses on the form of the great commission found in the gospel of John: "As the Father has sent me, so I send you." How did the Father send Jesus - how did he come? He came to serve. He healed the sick, was a friend to the outcast. We are sent to serve in that way. And to teach all that he has taught us, and to make disciples.
Stott strikes a good balance and avoids the false dichotomy of "either, or" between evangelism and social action. As Rob Bell says, "we are down with Billy Graham and his message. People need that. But we are also down with the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King and his message. People need that, too" [my paraphrase from memory]. Both, and. Not either, or. Yes I think it has to be both. But I am also questioning the form evangelicalism has taken over the years. As studies are showing many of those methods do more harm than good. So more than saying both are needed, a close look needs to be taken at how both are done. Yeah, some past ways of doing evangelism have been manipulative or otherwise pathological, and I'm open to (and encouraged by) rethinking ways to do evangelism. But this makes me think of the update I recently received from a friend who is the pastor of a multicultural bridge-church plant focused on cultural and economic justice issues in mid-city San Diego:
"What Not to Do: I took several classes on evangelism in seminary, and it seemed like we spent a great deal of time talking about what not to do. The first thing that was always at the top of the list was this: don’t trick people. Well, I am glad that Mariselva, a new believer that we baptized on Sept. 9th, didn’t take these classes, because she didn’t get the word that the “ol’ bait-and-switch technique” doesn’t work. Listen to this. She has been praying desperately for her colleagues to experience the joy of Jesus Christ. You know, she is praying with a fervency that only new-believers have. Well, she couldn’t think of a way to get them to church because they aren’t (in her words) “the church-going type.” So she invited 3 of her co-workers over for a “movie.” When they showed up she said, “Tonight, there is no movie, but not to worry, we are going to talk about something far more interesting and meaningful: Jesus.” Mariselva then launched into her story of how Christ brought redemption to her and to her three girls, and then she asked Edgardo and Elizabeth to fill in any holes in her story from the Bible. Edgardo, who was still in shock, began to walk them through the gospel, and much to all of our surprise, all three of these women received Christ. And these women, who aren’t the church-going type, mysteriously showed up in full force last week with their children (who have also become believers). Kinda reminds me of something I read once, about how “God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.” (I Cor. 1: 20-21)
Not to say we should be manipulative, nor that we shouldn't seek to do evangelism with integrity. But as with acts of mercy, justice and compassion . . . sometimes (usually) just getting out and doing it as best we currently can, is better than sitting around talking about the bad ways others have done it in the past, or the ways I could mess it up if I did it wrong or insensitively so I'd better wait until I've got it all figured out, etc. i wonder sometimes how revisionist a view we have of our evangelical heritage, after all it has a strong tradition of social action, justice, as well as evangelism. We just never really liked mixing the two, there was faith and works, church and parachurch, saving souls and saving lives etc.
maybe we are experiencing something more holistic now in realising that really the divide that we created doesn't really exist, or maybe more radically it is in serving that we are saved and in being saved we desire to serve?
As for barriers i think i can often feel overwhelmed by the problems of the world and the insistence that i need to go out and solve them using my own two hands.
I can also feel guilty/put off when people discount giving money or writing letters as an opt out when i feel that is very much an opt in.
I also need to keep being reminded it is about the small things, a cup of cold water given in love goes a long way in the kingdom. but it is also worth giving to aid agencies and writing to the govt to lobby for clean water for everyone... I don't think it's "revisionist" Paul. I think maybe it's just a matter of differences within certain strains of evangelicalism. Yes, there have been some strains that have a strong tradition of social justice (the Salvation Army comes to mind), but there are also very many that, largely in reaction to the so-called "social gospel" and also due to the influence of dispensational eschatology, have in fact eschewed most if not all kinds of social action as too "liberal" or "works based righteousness". Yes, let's give credit where it's due, and not lump all evangelicals together, but let's not also ignore the fact that many of us are in fact coming out of faith backgrounds where we were actively discouraged from helping the poor and working for justice in this world. And let's not ignore the fact that this attitude was in fact based on certain types of evangelical theology. I think Mike is right - there's no denying that many who grew up in evangelical churches during the second half of the 20th century didn't hear much about social action and acts of mercy as vital parts of the Christian life. But neither is there any denying that roots of social action, justice and compassion run deep in historic evangelicalism, and continued to exist in many pockets of evangelicalism right through the 20th century to today.
Were they still assigning "Discovering an Evangelical Heritage" at Wheaton when you were there Chris and Julie? Dr. Dennis Ockholm had our Theology of Culture class read it my first semester of freshman year, and it was an eye opener for me, even though I grew up in a church that actually emphasized ministry to the poor quite a bit.
From Amazon: "When it first appeared, Discovering an Evangelical Heritage was widely regarded as a groundbreaking historical work. The continued relevance of the issues with which this book deals justifies its reappearance twelve years after its first advent challenged countless people to rethink their Evangelical heritage. If anything, the challenge is even greater now to follow the example set by the forebears of twentieth century evangelicalism.For instance, Catherine Booth, co-founder of the Salvation Army and ardent feminist, offers a powerful testimony to the impact that Christian witness can and should have upon society. Likewise, abolitionist Theodore Weld, converted under the ministry of Charles G. Finney, showed what a response to the radical call of Christ means as he strove to right social injustice and inequity during his day. Despite the hardship and consequences of living out their faith, these and other evangelical forerunners left a heritage to be remembered and an example to be followed. Like the author himself, the reader will be challenged to rethink his or her own relationship with Evangelicalism and will have to reflect upon the broader significance of that movement in American culture." Chris and Julie? Not sure where that came from. Sorry about that Mike. And Julie. Hey Karl,
No, we didn't read that book. By the time we took Theology of Culture at Wheaton Okholm and Philips had written their own book "A Family of Faith: An Introduction to Evangelical Christianity" and assigned it to all the incoming classes. It basically described different stream of evangelicalism according to Richard Niebuhr's categories (Anabaptist=Christ against culture, Lutheran=Christ & Culture in Paradox, Liberal Protestants=Christ of Culture, Calvinists=Christ Transforming Culture), and showed a clear preference for the Calvinist/Christ Transforming Culture option, while at the same time expressing the typical conservative evangelical assumption that "culture is against us". At the time I found the categories informative, but later I started to think that they were overly simplistic, and forced me into a false dilemma of having to choose one tradition and rejecting the rest. It wasn't until I read Foster's "Streams of Living Water" that I started to think that all these different traditions might have good things to offer. That's a shame, because the "evangelical heritage" book was a good one, at least it was for me at that stage. I haven't read Ockholm and Philips' book, though I'd heard of it. I thought Streams of Living Water was terrific. I had a similar reaction as you to Niebuhr's categories. Informative and helpful for organizing some thoughts, but too reductionistic and falsely implying that it's always an either-or choice. Thankfully the prof I studied it under, Dr. Woodiwiss (for one of his political philosophy classes), didn't address it so simplistically. Pumpkin Time Book Review - It's A Dance JULIE! I can't believe you beat me to this book! It's been on my dresser for a week and I just started it last night. I should know better. I'm always a step behind you.... ;) Oh and that's why I've been borrowing all your books recently? :) we can't get this in England yet- sobs.... Hmm... I'll take you up on that book. Thanks for the recommendation.
One of my own disappointments in trying to figure out what the "emergent" discussion was saying is that they didn't communicate much of anything at all. If this book changes that, it's more than welcome.
Bob Bob - I have to wonder what you may have been reading if you think the emergent discussion doesn't communicate anything at all. I have found many good books out there full of substance. I guess it depends what you are looking for and where you are looking. More Harry Potter Thanks for the research and for sharing it with us in the post! Just testing the comments. Overhearing a Crisis of Faith Wow, I can relate to how she feels. That's what happened to me. It's just that I had supportive younger friends who accepted me for who I was and let me question, and doubt, and helped me see things through new lenses. Which all just confirmed what I was feeling and thinking. I wish I could talk to that lady....
tho, like you I probably wouldn't have been brave (or presumptive) enough to either.
You have the most interesting lunches. Can I tag along sometime?? not so uncommon- I spend a good deal of time ministering to such people! Karen - you're welcome to lunch anytime. I'm sure you would have loved today... Emma dumped my entire bowl of tomato soup on my lap in her eager attempt to dip her sandwich in mommy's soup just like mommy...
Sally - honestly I've found it rare here. Maybe its the Midwest/Bible Belt part of my heritage, but most older (65+) people I know just refuse to engage in questions. Even if they have doubts they point blank say that it isn't worth it to them to give up everything they know just to seek answers. So they stifle the questions and continue of business as usual. not rare here, either. in fact it's always been the older people here who have pushed the edges of radical theology and justice. and they're incredibly patient with the slightly arrogant young people who think they're the first to ever ask these questions or have this passion... well Julie, I will back you up on this one. In the US, in the Midwest, in our conservative churches especially in states like Ohio and Iowa, what you are seeing is very common. And growing up in the Wheaton bubble didn't help..... i can only imagine what crises of faith i'll be having if i get old... i guess the realisation of how little i know will help a lot, especially if i have forgotton a lot! Julie
This is obviously becoming more common, I too have talked with several older folks who are experiencing the same thing. Thanks for sharing. I've mentioned before the ultra-reformed church that sent us out of evangelicalism for a time. While there (we were in our twenties), we became good friends with a couple in their early 40's. When we left that church, they were the elder (and his wife) charged with interviewing us to find out why, and they had a hard time understanding where we were coming from. Around the same time, their 19 year old son dropped out of Christian college, suffering from depression and asking all kinds of big (and for them, scary) questions. We became good friends with him as well, having many emerge-ish conversations along the way, trying to show him that there were other ways of being a Christian than the narrow one he knew - that he didn't face a simple binary choice between chucking faith altogether or else accepting wholesale the faith of his youth.
Our friends, the young man's parents, were both grateful for and at times concerned about the influence we had on their son. But over time the conversations they had with him and us began to change their thinking. They have since left that church too, because of concerns similar to the ones that caused us to leave, and are now (in their 50's) very active members of a new local church that has some pretty strong emerging tendencies. We would still be friends with them even if they had never changed their thinking, but it has been amazing to see God move in them over the last decade or so, at an age and stage in life when so many people's thinking about faith seems set for life. I confess to being an avid follower of Scot's site (and he ain't no spring chicken) and have often enjoyed your comments, Julie, and linking to your site.
At the ripe old age of 60, I suspect that you may find more of us than you might guess. After all, we were the *hippies* of the 60s and 70s and were the ones questioning how to do church (and everything else) even way back then. Still questioning, after all these years. And if you hear of any emerging church folk out here in Phoenix, please please let me know.
Thanks for being a good listener / eavesdropper and for posting this. Trappings of a World in Which We Do Not Believe Actually Julie,
I thought yours was very coherent! well said Julie- a hollow Christianity is something to fear...for it says a lot about nothing! julie. great post. i have started feeling that way about so many of the things that used to have meanings but are now just done for tradition's sake. thanks.
-dan "Ignoring the wild and deep power of God as we engage in rituals of worship doesn't sit well with me. I think we need to start lifting the veil and start believing again."
That thought is wonderful Julie. It is implying (like so many other writers joined here) that the Thin and Awefilled Places are not optional extras in a liberalised faith, but a necessity in transcending the sad state of the Hollow Tradition we accept a normal.
I've been meaning to tell you that I have used your ideas in both my Halloween article as well as something I wrote last week:
http://soundandsilence.wordpress.com/2007/10/12/a-pagan-conversation/
Thank you. Julie,
You asked: "Are all the trappings of church just forgotten symbols of a deeper reality?" This is a great question! For a while I've wondered if "church" is nothing more than a weekly ritual for many... like a weekly Halloween in which we put on our costumes and run through the motions. I long for the deeper reality, and I've noticed that many others do as well. Thank you for this post!
-Alan Very well put, Julie. Hollow Halloween and hollow christianity are both, well, just hollow. And if Harry Potter passes through the Deathly Hallows on Halloween in the context of Christian scriptures, then we Christians might look at and listen to J. K. Rowling just a bit more closely. An number of bloggers are on to this, such as BabyBlue and AnnieWoo. There's much to reclaim. (and I love my kids candy corn after trick or treating with friends in our neighborhood). You really touch on a note that I feel when you speak of the "deeper reality" behind our faith. I often feel that the substance of our faith is superstition and philosophy rather than linking to the reality of who God/-ess is and what God/-ess means.
Thanks for your insightful post. The experience of worship as empty ritual is something experienced by so many, and I join with Julie in longing for more lifting of the veil.
It's interesting to observe many children of liturgical faiths (Catholic, Orthodox, mainline Episcopal) encounter an "aliveness" in Christ through contact with various expressions of evangelicalism (perhaps through an evangelical campus Christian group, or a local contemporary/seeker church) and feel such joy at leaving what for them was dead ritual behind in exchange for "the real thing" . . . and as they walk down that path they frequently pass an equal number of children of evangelicalism headed in the other direction, who are encountering an "aliveness" in the rich symbolism, sense of sacred awe and mystery in the liturgical service, and who are overjoyed at leaving behind what they have experienced as the dull, vapid and culturally bound rituals of evangelical worship.
That phenomenon suggests to me that the "lifting of the veil" has more to do with the spirit and heart than the form. We long for something real, not the hollow echo. But hollow echoes, as well as the real spirit, can be found in just about any branch of the Christian family tree, IMO. "Ignoring the wild and deep power of God as we engage in rituals of worship doesn't sit well with me."
I loved that. This is similar to how I describe that indescribable something behind fantasy and walks in the woods that provides and inkling of the greater Reality. The same blindingly out-of-my-control feel that the story of Abraham being called to offer up Isaac gives me.
Very nice contribution to the Synchroblog. Wow Julie...thanks for this. Sometimes I need reminding that yes, this is all real. Very nicely put Julie. You actually captured my feelings really well. Very good point.
My roommate is a newbie (which is what I call new Christians) and he's just started seeing visions. It was interesting timing; he had his first vision about a week after I casually commented to him, "It's nice that you're taking Christianity seriously, but wait till the weird stuff starts to happen."
The weird stuff started later that week. He had to wake me up as soon as he got off work (which was way too early for me, but one has to be patient with newbies) and tell me all about it. He was given a vision of the sort of things that were tempting one of his customers. It scared the stuffing out of him, but it confirmed the spiritual world for him in a way that years of Buddhism and neopaganism never had -- and it reminded him that God was with him, which is the sort of comforting thing that indicates this was of the Holy Spirit.
"I had no idea these things were out there," he said. "I mean, I knew, but I didn't really know."
"Welcome to Christianity," I commented. "That's what you get for taking the red pill." Thanks all.
Karl - you made a good point with, "That phenomenon suggests to me that the "lifting of the veil" has more to do with the spirit and heart than the form" The hollowness can be found in all the traditions. Have too many of us focused more on form than the reason those forms came into being in the first place? Julie, my own short answer to your question would be "yes."
You say "The hollowness can be found in all the traditions." I agree. No one tradition or form guarantees a lack of hollowness. Nor would any new one that we invent offer such a guarantee.
But I'd also add that while hollowness can be found in any tradition, so can the spirit and the experience of the veil being lifted, of finding oneself in a thin place between Heaven and earth because, maybe even in spite of the form, the focus is on "the reason those forms came into being in the first place." If I have eyes to see. C.S. Lewis is helpful to me here:
My own experience is that when I first became a Christian, about fourteen years ago, I thought that I could do it on my own, by retiring to my rooms and reading theology, and I wouldn't go to the churches and Gospel Halls . . . I disliked very much their hymns, which I considered to be fifth-rate poems set to sixth-rate music. But as I went on I saw the great merit of it. I came up against different people of quite different outlooks and different education, and then gradually my conceit just began peeling off. I realized that the hymns (which were just sixth-rate music) were, nevertheless, being sung with devotion and benefit by an old saint in elastic-side boots in the opposite pew, and then you realize that you aren't fit to clean those boots. It gets you out of your solitary conceit."
- C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock Wow. This is fantastic. Yes, we are gilded. We put on all the trappings of what we imagine the Christian life being but neglect the most important part - the heart. And things that we don't understand we fear and we run from, rather than letting the light of Christ shine on them. Great post. The Bible holds the answer to pagan holiday questions. I posted an article about Halloween on my blog and received several interesting comments. See http://tinyurl.com/ypd2ck Article at Next Wave Ezine Awesome!
I need to go read it when I have time. My Mere Existence you and me both sister. shine on, I'm honored to shine next to you :) Well Julie, I must admit that your "mere existence" on Amateur Theology has been a great blessing. It's been really nice having your comments contributing to discussion. I'm with you, sister friend. Well, keep existing, if only to get back at the small-minded. ;^)
I've been badly treated when out in the food court with just me and my kids when they were very young. In the face of mistreatment, once I was aided by an elderly couple and once by a couple of teenage girls (believe it or not). People suck sometimes... thankfully, not always. ;^) Julie-
And I thought that I was having a bad day here and there! I know that I was starting to get testy, but good grief!
Somehow I think that God can use a gritty toughness mixed with a lot of pouring our heart out to him and amazing grace. It's amazing that we have any sometimes, and even more amazing that he does.
P.S. You and I both know we can't believe the crap that some people fling our way! Thanks all.
And to add an update. Tonight with her hair still in pigtails and ribbons wearing her pink Supergirl sweater Emma was called a little boy. I just really had to laugh. that's so strange! I've seen Emma in person and I can't imagine mistaking her for a boy. people are weird. Hang in there, Julie...if your mere existence annoys people that actually means you have a lot of power :-) I hope today is a better day. Sorry about your yesterday. Thanks for your willingness to share and dialogue about your journey. Your mere existence makes my world brighter.
I used to get called a boy all the time when I was Emma's age. Makeesha's right; people are weird. I hope your experiecne wasn't in Naperville, but if it was it is par for the course. I always amazes when you go into a business and they seem offended that you are there to give them money.
Don't let the goofies get you down. damn you have a lot more self control than I do. By the time the modesty police lady started in, I fear I would have been in full blown "gently mock you to your face to see how strongly I can trigger you into further stupidity" mode. i've heard of getting your back up in public but never your back out! well done you :)
as for the rest of the crappy world, blah, keep existing we need you! He with the Loudest Voice Wins Um, Julie....what happened? Nothing specific. Just sick of being always on the defense in conversations. It's kinda hard to be yourself if your always perceived as wrong automatically... I know...it gets to me sometimes too.
I don't read the Bible as much as I used to but as best I recall...didn't Jesus say it would be like this?
I think this is exactly what Brian McLaren's discussion of framing stories in his latest book is all about. When Christians become the Loud Voice it often means they have bought into the wrong story, the story that is not about the Kingdom of God but about humans with the most power/money/influence taking advantage of others to make the world a better place only for the privileged few - and worse for everyone else.
Ask Jesus how to deal with lots of people misunderstanding you...he must have figured that out... I think I can relate to what you are feeling Julie. My wife and I experienced something similar in a hyper-Calvinist church about ten years ago, where we were the only ones asking questions about concern for the poor, just how much doctrine should be treated as non-negotiable, where is the beauty in our worship, my wife with her master's degree in education couldn't teach Sunday school above sixth grade because anything beyond that would have her, a woman, instructing young "men" contra the scriptures, etc. Loud voices and/or condescending attitudes were the primary responses to our questions. I feel like I've read everything RC Sproul ever wrote, I've had him quoted at me so much. So, I can relate. As a result of that experience, we ended up in the Episcopal Church for about 7 years.
At the same time, I have another parallel response which is "what did you/we expect?" Some/most of what you describe is human nature, isn't it? Not the sole province of conservative evangelicals. If someone went to Doug Pagitt's church, Rob Bell's Mars Hill or an Emergent gathering and started gently but persistently trying to argue for a complementarian view of scripture, a more positive view of globalization, and a more logic and rationality-based faith, they would probably feel similar to how I felt in that calvinist church 10 years ago. Either condescended to, or else drowned out by loud angry voices citing A New Kind of Christian, Velvet Elvis, Everything Must Change and Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger along with a mind-numbing array of statistics and sociological data that just shut them down and left them feeling unheard and depersonalized.
When we swim upstream, we shouldn't be surprised to encounter resistance, should we? When we are knowingly going against the flow and experiencing what that feels like, in our surprise are we a little like the punked out kid with spiked orange and pink hair and a chain connecting his nose ring to his earring, who has a chip on his shoulder about why people stare at him? Karl - I know debate will happen, I want that to happen. I'm frustrated by people who are too stupid to think for themselves who never even dream of asking questions. As in discussion is good, being a mindless drone is not. At the same time, I have another parallel response which is "what did you/we expect?" Some/most of what you describe is human nature, isn't it? Not the sole province of conservative evangelicals. If someone went to Doug Pagitt's church, Rob Bell's Mars Hill or an Emergent gathering and started gently but persistently trying to argue for a complementarian view of scripture, a more positive view of globalization, and a more logic and rationality-based faith, they would probably feel similar to how I felt in that calvinist church 10 years ago. Either condescended to, or else drowned out by loud angry voices citing A New Kind of Christian, Velvet Elvis, Everything Must Change and Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger along with a mind-numbing array of statistics and sociological data that just shut them down and left them feeling unheard and depersonalized.
Karl, I'm glad you said this because it's easy to be upset with other groups for not being open to different ideas yet we can be just the same way in our own groups.
I wrote about the Range Of Acceptable Answers (ROAA) on a blog last year. I think all groups tend towards having one and rejecting answers outside it, unless they put effort into being open to different ideas than their own. "I'm frustrated by people who are too stupid to think for themselves who never even dream of asking questions. As in discussion is good, being a mindless drone is not."
I agree with that. I felt the same way in the Episcopal church encountering people who mindlessly and unquestioningly spouted the (liberal) spirit of the age and clearly had never even considered the best arguments of the other side from a fair and thoughtful perspective. Mindless drones exist in any ideological or theological camp. The Episcopal, "God is a liberal democrat" drones were no more thoughtful and open than the fundamentalist, "God is a conservative Republican" drones, just more sophisticated and faux-intellectual. It was equally hard to have meaningful discussion with either. Again, I think we're talking about a tendency in human nature rather than a unique characteristic of one "side". Helen, I like your term "Range of Acceptable Answers" and think that's a helpful concept to keep in mind.
I also think Julie's term "Loud Voices" is useful. Which voices are the Loud Voices depends to a large degree on your context. Julie:
Thanks so much for posting this. I too have often found that people will respect the "loudest voice", although this can sometimes mean different things.
For example, the "loudest voice" can sometimes be the most articulate or belong to an "expert". The loudest voice might be that which is on radio or TV...who are we mere mortals to challenge a media star?
Of course, none of this has anything to do with the truth, but it nonetheless seems to be a formula for (the loud voice's) success. Thanks Karl! I must stop speed reading... I read this sentance
"but the radio preachers tell their listeners that the emerging church is a cult where they sacrifice children and have sex with Satan (or something similar) they will believe the radio guys and condemn you to hell."
as "they will believe the radio guys and condom you to hell"
but i guess that would be having your cake and eating it :) Once again, Joel Osteen's utter failure to uphold Christian truth in an age of apostacy only further supports what is all too clear about his teaching: it is spiritually bankrupt.
Here is a link to articles our ministry has created on Osteen's heretical compromise that is anointed as "Christianity" today.
http://www.spiritwatch.org/behindsmile.htm In this Week's News I am not bothered that she made Dumbledore gay so much as I am by the way that it occurred. I could not get "Token" from South Park out of my head. It was almost as if it occurred to her that she had forgotten to put in the "Token" gay character so she said, "Hmmm... well... How bout' we make Dumbledore gay?... yeah... that works". What other characters now need to be modified after the fact? Next we will see updated versions of the books ala Star Wars/Lucas. Perhaps we can send Kyle and Stan to save the original HP manuscripts. That wasn't an issue for me. I know she had the entire backstories of all the main characters mapped out already (which may be appearing in a HP encyclopedia someday). I am just imagining her responding thinking "but of course he's gay, I've known that all along, why didn't you get it?" Alan Jacobs has chimed in with his thoughts on Rowlings' Dumbledore revelation at The American Scene.
http://theamericanscene.com/2007/10/23/the-gay-headmaster Missional Failure Thanks so much for posting and linking back to me. Much appreciated! Too bad I live on the "wrong side of town" or I'd come visit. :-) Book Review - Inspiration and Incarnation ha, I just had to read this book for school. It was alright, I recommend it for evangelicals, but I certainly disagreed with some thing in it.
A book I would recommend that is similar to this but offers a different conclusion is 'Living & Active' by Telford Work. He sort of write it in response to Enns, and I actually like it a lot better :-) Like I said I disagreed with things too and like learning from other perspectives, but this is a needed book for evangelicals who otherwise won't even engage in the conversation. Garden Harvest Well it couldn't possibly be a result of global warming. Everyone knows that's just a hoax. ;-) My memory of the summer-fall-winter transition in the Chicago suburbs: hot and humid end of summer weather lasting into mid or late September, followed by a week to ten days of mild fall weather, after which the arctic winds blow through, the leaves turn brown and fall off the trees in the space of about a day and a half, and the six-month winter has arrived. Switching Blogs? you should most definitely change. . . and wordpress can suck in all of your blogger content.
it is quite better. I just switched my blog from blogspot to wordpress and I LOVE it. I love wordpress. having tried vox, xanga, typepad, blogger and wordpress (both wordpress and self hosted), I think wordpress is the way to go (typepad users would have a coronary to hear me say that hehe they're a loyal bunch)
I used hostmysite and it's less than $50 a year for a blog account. Pennies really. They set it all up for you with wordpress installed and you can easily transfer your blogger over...wordpress even has a little instant tool deal.
the benefits of course to having a self hosted blog are plugins and being able to customize your templates as well as having your own domain if you want. But wordpress hosted blogs are pretty versatile and you can open a wordpress blog, move over your blogger blog and try it and THEN get an account with a server and your own domain. So you don't have to completely commit - you can even leave your blogger blog up and running while you play with wordpress without having to do everything all over again when you get your own server.
You CAN theoretically do static pages with blogger, you just have to create a new blog for every page and then link over that way. I did that when I had a blogger blog. It was a tad annoying but it worked.
anyway, there's my vast wealth on the subject ... I'm sort of embarrassed about how much I know about these things - it's because I have a community site, pub theology site, cohort site and have created several blogs as small business sites for clients...really truly that's why ;) I like the flexibility of self-hosted wordpress but if you don't want to pay anything to have a wordpress blog and you can't find free hosting service, then wordpress-hosted will be the way to go. wow a lot of wordpress fans out there. I think I might play around with Wordpress and see what I want to do. I just really really don't like their basic themes... I switched to wordpress and won't go back. I say do it. Julie, here's a page which handily has screenshots of some of the wordpress.com themes (scroll down to see them):
wordpress.com theme reviews
Some of my favorite themes are here and I don't think this is even the complete list of themes they offer.
If you go self-hosted, there are some very creative and different themes freely available. The blog at www.weblogtoolscollection.com lists new free themes daily (the themes are free but you have to cover the self-hosting cost as Makeesha explained). Wordpress is a treat. I actually use it for a website, rather than a blog, with the pages facility. Don't know much about the other blogs but the guys at wordpress just seem to have made everything so easy for a non-techie like me.
You can import all your blogger blog into wp and the range of themes is pretty extensive. I started on blogger and switched to wordpress self-hosted a little over a year ago.
The themes that are available for self-hosted are almost endless ... so if you're feeling limited by the wordpress themes, my guess is you're looking at .com rather than .org. Some of the themes for self-hosted are really beautiful and artsy ... and go way beyond anything in blogger.
I'm definitely a huge fan of wordpress. I toyed with the other platforms, but kept coming back to wordpress before I made the leap. I still have a number of blogs in blogger and like that, but find it very limited. It's like using word processing software vs. desktop publishing software. I can still get the job done, but I can't get fancy or have fun with it. ;-) Hi Julie!
I've set up four self-hosted wordpress blogs, including , and I love it. Plugins are such a handy feature to have. And there are tons of free theme layouts that you can easily download and install. If I recall correctly, the theme options at blogspot are pretty limited.
Chandler Christians Don't Care about Justice Julie,
I was introduced to John Perkins (the Christian one) by a good friend of mine who recently moved near Cleveland. His plan is to live a life that demonstrates the love of Christ to his community - a la Perkins... and, more importantly, a la Christ. I've enjoyed what I've read by Perkins, and I look forward to reading more. Thanks for the notice about this book... and the interesting facts that we can learn about ourselves (as Christ followers) by listening to others.
-Alan Hey Julie -
Intense comments on Amazon. Like you, I'm saddened that people in our culture do not affiliate Christians with justice. But I am not surprised. Did you read the most recent study bby the Barna Group? They interviewed thousands of young people and found that most of them associate Christians with words like "anti-homosexual," "judgmental", etc. I think we're in the middle of a post-Christendom time in our nation.
Have you heard of the new movie called, For the Bible Tells Me So? I went to see it last night here in Los Angeles. I found it extremely fascinating - definitely worth it. I am a little worried that people will not have opportunities to discuss the movie after seeing it - because it raises such critical issues about the status of the American church and its perspectives on homosexuality. The film makers make a point that the root of homophobia stems from the fear and hatred of women's sexuality. Very interesting stuff. I think Amazon should do something along the lines of "disambiguation" with the product descriptions of books by authors with the same name. They're not helping their own bottom line if there is this confusion.
Yes, it is disturbing that people should think Christians would automatically not be interested in justice issues. Quite a turn in 1500 years, from when the church was known for caring for the material needs of those who not only "belonged", but also of those who did not "belong".
On the other hand, it was reading "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" with my book group (Christians all) that was the "last straw" that drove me to de-register as a Republican.... I'm currently a "decline to state affiliation"- disillusioned with the system that takes (mostly) well-intentioned people who want to serve their country and turns them into re-election robots.
Politics is the only thing about which I'm cynical.
Dana Ames This post has been removed by a blog administrator. Sorry IndyChristian/Neil for removing your comment. For some reason it just really messed up the blog format. Here was the text -
Julie... Thanks for the post. And yeah, it's a sad comment re the American 'Church'. But I hold great hope in the growing number of prayer-care-share Christ-followers connecting and effectively 'reconfiguring' the Church... city by city. Visit CityReaching.org
I've added your CCDA-related post to those tagged at the recent conference.
-Neil
I've just been riffing on all saints over the last few days and i've found some inspiration in people who ground out a life of love even when they felt more like the grinds themselve... I want to say yes, but so often I trip over my own complacency and fear....
Come Holy Spirit come Token Gestures and True Justice thanks, Julie. Yes, a lot of companies spend far more on PR stuff blowing their own trumpets about what they are doing to save the environment, liberate the oppressed and so on than they spend on actually doing those things.
Back in the apartheid days I heard a radio interview with a oil company executive about all the things they were doing to fight apartheid, and gave an address to write to.
I wrote, and back came an expensive glossy booklet about how they were helping schools and so on.
I suggested that if they really wanted to fight apartheid, they could issue free bumper stickers to motorists with slogans like "One man one vote now" and "Ballots not bullets".
Black motorists would have loved them, but of course they would not dare to stick out their necks like that -- the government might cancel lucrative contracts, to say the least.
No, they would rather print glossy brochures to persuade their overeseas investors not to disinvest. Julie,
Thanks for this post. I wonder if this trend is merely a reflection of what happens within our churches. Aren't these corporations copying the actions of churches? Haven't we replaced our call to follow Christ and champion justice with a meek form of self-serving charity designed to bring in more members? Since the idea of Justice was stripped from the message of our religions doesn't it make sense that the public followed along?
We should try to force these corporations to favor justice but maybe we should also focus on retooling our religions so that we are providing proper motivation. Until our religions champion justice, our government and our corporate interests never will. Halloween 2007 Safe and Ethical Toys? Thanks for this post Julie. I hope you don't mind if I link to it from my blog as this is a topic I have been thinking about for a while.
I have been a silent follower (lurker?) on your blog for a while now. I particularly appreciate your posts on social justice issues- it's nice to find others out there in the blogosphere who have similar values. So, I just finished reading A Year Without "Made in China": One Family's True Life Adventure in the Global Economy by Sara Bongiorni. I don't agree entirely with the book, however it was interesting that virtually every toy in our stores is being made in China. Legos are made in Denmark? Uh - not so fast - they are now being outsourced to, you guessed it, China.
Puts all of us parents in a bind if we want to find ethically made toys. It's not China I object to - it's the way the toys are made and by whom that is the problem.
Good luck with Christmas, Julie! Thanks, Julie - I'm really close to letting this be "burst the bubble Christmas" at our house, as we find out that the Grinch runs the North Pole and it's all been a ruse. Nobody believes me when I tell them this, but I remember having conversations with my parents around the dinner table and we talked about this very thing happening when Nixon opened relations with China in the 70's.
I'm going to swear ... this is just bullshit. We cannot go to war over this crap in Iraq and then condone it and buy it from China. Fascism is fascism is fascism and I don't care where it is or who's in charge.
Okay, rant over ... sorry, I have an almost 14 year old daughter and the thought of girls her age being forced into labor and treated that way makes me see red. It's not just toys that you can't buy without the Made In China sticker ... there's practically nothing that doesn't have that horrible sticker on it these days. Our economy would collapse were it not for slavery. Think on that ... Nobody believes me when I tell them this, but I remember having conversations with my parents around the dinner table and we talked about this very thing happening when Nixon opened relations with China in the 70's.
I'm going to swear ... this is just bullshit. We cannot go to war over this crap in Iraq and then condone it and buy it from China. Fascism is fascism is fascism and I don't care where it is or who's in charge.
Okay, rant over ... sorry, I have an almost 14 year old daughter and the thought of girls her age being forced into labor and treated that way makes me see red. It's not just toys that you can't buy without the Made In China sticker ... there's practically nothing that doesn't have that horrible sticker on it these days. Our economy would collapse were it not for slavery. Think on that ... Like Karen mentioned, I don't have a problem with "Made in China" per se. To me outsourcing isn't the problem, people need jobs. It is the quality of those jobs that present the problem. When Mattel can get waivers to pay below minimum wage for China, there are some serious greed and oppression issues occuring. And what makes me even more sick is that after evil like this is exposed the response by the companies is not to reform but to shut down the factories and terminate jobs, they save face but still end up hurting people. So What's Your Excuse? Thank you for this excellent post. I'm passing it forward - much to chew on! well said Julie- I think this has become my life message- and if you read the great commission in the correct way it reads- as you go- disciple- it is a call to being! John Stott has good thoughts on seeing the great commission in this light. He says that he used to argue (and argued at the first Lausanne conference on world evangelism) that evangelism was the primary way to understand the great commission and social action was justified only if it was in service to evangelism. But he now sees it differently, and argues that evangelism and social justic, acts of service and mercy and stewardship, are co-equal partners in the mission of the church, with neither taking a back seat to the other.
Stott focuses on the form of the great commission found in the gospel of John: "As the Father has sent me, so I send you." How did the Father send Jesus - how did he come? He came to serve. He healed the sick, was a friend to the outcast. We are sent to serve in that way. And to teach all that he has taught us, and to make disciples.
Stott strikes a good balance and avoids the false dichotomy of "either, or" between evangelism and social action. As Rob Bell says, "we are down with Billy Graham and his message. People need that. But we are also down with the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King and his message. People need that, too" [my paraphrase from memory]. Both, and. Not either, or. Yes I think it has to be both. But I am also questioning the form evangelicalism has taken over the years. As studies are showing many of those methods do more harm than good. So more than saying both are needed, a close look needs to be taken at how both are done. Yeah, some past ways of doing evangelism have been manipulative or otherwise pathological, and I'm open to (and encouraged by) rethinking ways to do evangelism. But this makes me think of the update I recently received from a friend who is the pastor of a multicultural bridge-church plant focused on cultural and economic justice issues in mid-city San Diego:
"What Not to Do: I took several classes on evangelism in seminary, and it seemed like we spent a great deal of time talking about what not to do. The first thing that was always at the top of the list was this: don’t trick people. Well, I am glad that Mariselva, a new believer that we baptized on Sept. 9th, didn’t take these classes, because she didn’t get the word that the “ol’ bait-and-switch technique” doesn’t work. Listen to this. She has been praying desperately for her colleagues to experience the joy of Jesus Christ. You know, she is praying with a fervency that only new-believers have. Well, she couldn’t think of a way to get them to church because they aren’t (in her words) “the church-going type.” So she invited 3 of her co-workers over for a “movie.” When they showed up she said, “Tonight, there is no movie, but not to worry, we are going to talk about something far more interesting and meaningful: Jesus.” Mariselva then launched into her story of how Christ brought redemption to her and to her three girls, and then she asked Edgardo and Elizabeth to fill in any holes in her story from the Bible. Edgardo, who was still in shock, began to walk them through the gospel, and much to all of our surprise, all three of these women received Christ. And these women, who aren’t the church-going type, mysteriously showed up in full force last week with their children (who have also become believers). Kinda reminds me of something I read once, about how “God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.” (I Cor. 1: 20-21)
Not to say we should be manipulative, nor that we shouldn't seek to do evangelism with integrity. But as with acts of mercy, justice and compassion . . . sometimes (usually) just getting out and doing it as best we currently can, is better than sitting around talking about the bad ways others have done it in the past, or the ways I could mess it up if I did it wrong or insensitively so I'd better wait until I've got it all figured out, etc. i wonder sometimes how revisionist a view we have of our evangelical heritage, after all it has a strong tradition of social action, justice, as well as evangelism. We just never really liked mixing the two, there was faith and works, church and parachurch, saving souls and saving lives etc.
maybe we are experiencing something more holistic now in realising that really the divide that we created doesn't really exist, or maybe more radically it is in serving that we are saved and in being saved we desire to serve?
As for barriers i think i can often feel overwhelmed by the problems of the world and the insistence that i need to go out and solve them using my own two hands.
I can also feel guilty/put off when people discount giving money or writing letters as an opt out when i feel that is very much an opt in.
I also need to keep being reminded it is about the small things, a cup of cold water given in love goes a long way in the kingdom. but it is also worth giving to aid agencies and writing to the govt to lobby for clean water for everyone... I don't think it's "revisionist" Paul. I think maybe it's just a matter of differences within certain strains of evangelicalism. Yes, there have been some strains that have a strong tradition of social justice (the Salvation Army comes to mind), but there are also very many that, largely in reaction to the so-called "social gospel" and also due to the influence of dispensational eschatology, have in fact eschewed most if not all kinds of social action as too "liberal" or "works based righteousness". Yes, let's give credit where it's due, and not lump all evangelicals together, but let's not also ignore the fact that many of us are in fact coming out of faith backgrounds where we were actively discouraged from helping the poor and working for justice in this world. And let's not ignore the fact that this attitude was in fact based on certain types of evangelical theology. I think Mike is right - there's no denying that many who grew up in evangelical churches during the second half of the 20th century didn't hear much about social action and acts of mercy as vital parts of the Christian life. But neither is there any denying that roots of social action, justice and compassion run deep in historic evangelicalism, and continued to exist in many pockets of evangelicalism right through the 20th century to today.
Were they still assigning "Discovering an Evangelical Heritage" at Wheaton when you were there Chris and Julie? Dr. Dennis Ockholm had our Theology of Culture class read it my first semester of freshman year, and it was an eye opener for me, even though I grew up in a church that actually emphasized ministry to the poor quite a bit.
From Amazon: "When it first appeared, Discovering an Evangelical Heritage was widely regarded as a groundbreaking historical work. The continued relevance of the issues with which this book deals justifies its reappearance twelve years after its first advent challenged countless people to rethink their Evangelical heritage. If anything, the challenge is even greater now to follow the example set by the forebears of twentieth century evangelicalism.For instance, Catherine Booth, co-founder of the Salvation Army and ardent feminist, offers a powerful testimony to the impact that Christian witness can and should have upon society. Likewise, abolitionist Theodore Weld, converted under the ministry of Charles G. Finney, showed what a response to the radical call of Christ means as he strove to right social injustice and inequity during his day. Despite the hardship and consequences of living out their faith, these and other evangelical forerunners left a heritage to be remembered and an example to be followed. Like the author himself, the reader will be challenged to rethink his or her own relationship with Evangelicalism and will have to reflect upon the broader significance of that movement in American culture." Chris and Julie? Not sure where that came from. Sorry about that Mike. And Julie. Hey Karl,
No, we didn't read that book. By the time we took Theology of Culture at Wheaton Okholm and Philips had written their own book "A Family of Faith: An Introduction to Evangelical Christianity" and assigned it to all the incoming classes. It basically described different stream of evangelicalism according to Richard Niebuhr's categories (Anabaptist=Christ against culture, Lutheran=Christ & Culture in Paradox, Liberal Protestants=Christ of Culture, Calvinists=Christ Transforming Culture), and showed a clear preference for the Calvinist/Christ Transforming Culture option, while at the same time expressing the typical conservative evangelical assumption that "culture is against us". At the time I found the categories informative, but later I started to think that they were overly simplistic, and forced me into a false dilemma of having to choose one tradition and rejecting the rest. It wasn't until I read Foster's "Streams of Living Water" that I started to think that all these different traditions might have good things to offer. That's a shame, because the "evangelical heritage" book was a good one, at least it was for me at that stage. I haven't read Ockholm and Philips' book, though I'd heard of it. I thought Streams of Living Water was terrific. I had a similar reaction as you to Niebuhr's categories. Informative and helpful for organizing some thoughts, but too reductionistic and falsely implying that it's always an either-or choice. Thankfully the prof I studied it under, Dr. Woodiwiss (for one of his political philosophy classes), didn't address it so simplistically. Pumpkin Time Book Review - It's A Dance JULIE! I can't believe you beat me to this book! It's been on my dresser for a week and I just started it last night. I should know better. I'm always a step behind you.... ;) Oh and that's why I've been borrowing all your books recently? :) we can't get this in England yet- sobs.... Hmm... I'll take you up on that book. Thanks for the recommendation.
One of my own disappointments in trying to figure out what the "emergent" discussion was saying is that they didn't communicate much of anything at all. If this book changes that, it's more than welcome.
Bob Bob - I have to wonder what you may have been reading if you think the emergent discussion doesn't communicate anything at all. I have found many good books out there full of substance. I guess it depends what you are looking for and where you are looking. More Harry Potter Thanks for the research and for sharing it with us in the post! Just testing the comments. Overhearing a Crisis of Faith Wow, I can relate to how she feels. That's what happened to me. It's just that I had supportive younger friends who accepted me for who I was and let me question, and doubt, and helped me see things through new lenses. Which all just confirmed what I was feeling and thinking. I wish I could talk to that lady....
tho, like you I probably wouldn't have been brave (or presumptive) enough to either.
You have the most interesting lunches. Can I tag along sometime?? not so uncommon- I spend a good deal of time ministering to such people! Karen - you're welcome to lunch anytime. I'm sure you would have loved today... Emma dumped my entire bowl of tomato soup on my lap in her eager attempt to dip her sandwich in mommy's soup just like mommy...
Sally - honestly I've found it rare here. Maybe its the Midwest/Bible Belt part of my heritage, but most older (65+) people I know just refuse to engage in questions. Even if they have doubts they point blank say that it isn't worth it to them to give up everything they know just to seek answers. So they stifle the questions and continue of business as usual. not rare here, either. in fact it's always been the older people here who have pushed the edges of radical theology and justice. and they're incredibly patient with the slightly arrogant young people who think they're the first to ever ask these questions or have this passion... well Julie, I will back you up on this one. In the US, in the Midwest, in our conservative churches especially in states like Ohio and Iowa, what you are seeing is very common. And growing up in the Wheaton bubble didn't help..... i can only imagine what crises of faith i'll be having if i get old... i guess the realisation of how little i know will help a lot, especially if i have forgotton a lot! Julie
This is obviously becoming more common, I too have talked with several older folks who are experiencing the same thing. Thanks for sharing. I've mentioned before the ultra-reformed church that sent us out of evangelicalism for a time. While there (we were in our twenties), we became good friends with a couple in their early 40's. When we left that church, they were the elder (and his wife) charged with interviewing us to find out why, and they had a hard time understanding where we were coming from. Around the same time, their 19 year old son dropped out of Christian college, suffering from depression and asking all kinds of big (and for them, scary) questions. We became good friends with him as well, having many emerge-ish conversations along the way, trying to show him that there were other ways of being a Christian than the narrow one he knew - that he didn't face a simple binary choice between chucking faith altogether or else accepting wholesale the faith of his youth.
Our friends, the young man's parents, were both grateful for and at times concerned about the influence we had on their son. But over time the conversations they had with him and us began to change their thinking. They have since left that church too, because of concerns similar to the ones that caused us to leave, and are now (in their 50's) very active members of a new local church that has some pretty strong emerging tendencies. We would still be friends with them even if they had never changed their thinking, but it has been amazing to see God move in them over the last decade or so, at an age and stage in life when so many people's thinking about faith seems set for life. I confess to being an avid follower of Scot's site (and he ain't no spring chicken) and have often enjoyed your comments, Julie, and linking to your site.
At the ripe old age of 60, I suspect that you may find more of us than you might guess. After all, we were the *hippies* of the 60s and 70s and were the ones questioning how to do church (and everything else) even way back then. Still questioning, after all these years. And if you hear of any emerging church folk out here in Phoenix, please please let me know.
Thanks for being a good listener / eavesdropper and for posting this. Trappings of a World in Which We Do Not Believe Actually Julie,
I thought yours was very coherent! well said Julie- a hollow Christianity is something to fear...for it says a lot about nothing! julie. great post. i have started feeling that way about so many of the things that used to have meanings but are now just done for tradition's sake. thanks.
-dan "Ignoring the wild and deep power of God as we engage in rituals of worship doesn't sit well with me. I think we need to start lifting the veil and start believing again."
That thought is wonderful Julie. It is implying (like so many other writers joined here) that the Thin and Awefilled Places are not optional extras in a liberalised faith, but a necessity in transcending the sad state of the Hollow Tradition we accept a normal.
I've been meaning to tell you that I have used your ideas in both my Halloween article as well as something I wrote last week:
http://soundandsilence.wordpress.com/2007/10/12/a-pagan-conversation/
Thank you. Julie,
You asked: "Are all the trappings of church just forgotten symbols of a deeper reality?" This is a great question! For a while I've wondered if "church" is nothing more than a weekly ritual for many... like a weekly Halloween in which we put on our costumes and run through the motions. I long for the deeper reality, and I've noticed that many others do as well. Thank you for this post!
-Alan Very well put, Julie. Hollow Halloween and hollow christianity are both, well, just hollow. And if Harry Potter passes through the Deathly Hallows on Halloween in the context of Christian scriptures, then we Christians might look at and listen to J. K. Rowling just a bit more closely. An number of bloggers are on to this, such as BabyBlue and AnnieWoo. There's much to reclaim. (and I love my kids candy corn after trick or treating with friends in our neighborhood). You really touch on a note that I feel when you speak of the "deeper reality" behind our faith. I often feel that the substance of our faith is superstition and philosophy rather than linking to the reality of who God/-ess is and what God/-ess means.
Thanks for your insightful post. The experience of worship as empty ritual is something experienced by so many, and I join with Julie in longing for more lifting of the veil.
It's interesting to observe many children of liturgical faiths (Catholic, Orthodox, mainline Episcopal) encounter an "aliveness" in Christ through contact with various expressions of evangelicalism (perhaps through an evangelical campus Christian group, or a local contemporary/seeker church) and feel such joy at leaving what for them was dead ritual behind in exchange for "the real thing" . . . and as they walk down that path they frequently pass an equal number of children of evangelicalism headed in the other direction, who are encountering an "aliveness" in the rich symbolism, sense of sacred awe and mystery in the liturgical service, and who are overjoyed at leaving behind what they have experienced as the dull, vapid and culturally bound rituals of evangelical worship.
That phenomenon suggests to me that the "lifting of the veil" has more to do with the spirit and heart than the form. We long for something real, not the hollow echo. But hollow echoes, as well as the real spirit, can be found in just about any branch of the Christian family tree, IMO. "Ignoring the wild and deep power of God as we engage in rituals of worship doesn't sit well with me."
I loved that. This is similar to how I describe that indescribable something behind fantasy and walks in the woods that provides and inkling of the greater Reality. The same blindingly out-of-my-control feel that the story of Abraham being called to offer up Isaac gives me.
Very nice contribution to the Synchroblog. Wow Julie...thanks for this. Sometimes I need reminding that yes, this is all real. Very nicely put Julie. You actually captured my feelings really well. Very good point.
My roommate is a newbie (which is what I call new Christians) and he's just started seeing visions. It was interesting timing; he had his first vision about a week after I casually commented to him, "It's nice that you're taking Christianity seriously, but wait till the weird stuff starts to happen."
The weird stuff started later that week. He had to wake me up as soon as he got off work (which was way too early for me, but one has to be patient with newbies) and tell me all about it. He was given a vision of the sort of things that were tempting one of his customers. It scared the stuffing out of him, but it confirmed the spiritual world for him in a way that years of Buddhism and neopaganism never had -- and it reminded him that God was with him, which is the sort of comforting thing that indicates this was of the Holy Spirit.
"I had no idea these things were out there," he said. "I mean, I knew, but I didn't really know."
"Welcome to Christianity," I commented. "That's what you get for taking the red pill." Thanks all.
Karl - you made a good point with, "That phenomenon suggests to me that the "lifting of the veil" has more to do with the spirit and heart than the form" The hollowness can be found in all the traditions. Have too many of us focused more on form than the reason those forms came into being in the first place? Julie, my own short answer to your question would be "yes."
You say "The hollowness can be found in all the traditions." I agree. No one tradition or form guarantees a lack of hollowness. Nor would any new one that we invent offer such a guarantee.
But I'd also add that while hollowness can be found in any tradition, so can the spirit and the experience of the veil being lifted, of finding oneself in a thin place between Heaven and earth because, maybe even in spite of the form, the focus is on "the reason those forms came into being in the first place." If I have eyes to see. C.S. Lewis is helpful to me here:
My own experience is that when I first became a Christian, about fourteen years ago, I thought that I could do it on my own, by retiring to my rooms and reading theology, and I wouldn't go to the churches and Gospel Halls . . . I disliked very much their hymns, which I considered to be fifth-rate poems set to sixth-rate music. But as I went on I saw the great merit of it. I came up against different people of quite different outlooks and different education, and then gradually my conceit just began peeling off. I realized that the hymns (which were just sixth-rate music) were, nevertheless, being sung with devotion and benefit by an old saint in elastic-side boots in the opposite pew, and then you realize that you aren't fit to clean those boots. It gets you out of your solitary conceit."
- C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock Wow. This is fantastic. Yes, we are gilded. We put on all the trappings of what we imagine the Christian life being but neglect the most important part - the heart. And things that we don't understand we fear and we run from, rather than letting the light of Christ shine on them. Great post. The Bible holds the answer to pagan holiday questions. I posted an article about Halloween on my blog and received several interesting comments. See http://tinyurl.com/ypd2ck Article at Next Wave Ezine Awesome!
I need to go read it when I have time. My Mere Existence you and me both sister. shine on, I'm honored to shine next to you :) Well Julie, I must admit that your "mere existence" on Amateur Theology has been a great blessing. It's been really nice having your comments contributing to discussion. I'm with you, sister friend. Well, keep existing, if only to get back at the small-minded. ;^)
I've been badly treated when out in the food court with just me and my kids when they were very young. In the face of mistreatment, once I was aided by an elderly couple and once by a couple of teenage girls (believe it or not). People suck sometimes... thankfully, not always. ;^) Julie-
And I thought that I was having a bad day here and there! I know that I was starting to get testy, but good grief!
Somehow I think that God can use a gritty toughness mixed with a lot of pouring our heart out to him and amazing grace. It's amazing that we have any sometimes, and even more amazing that he does.
P.S. You and I both know we can't believe the crap that some people fling our way! Thanks all.
And to add an update. Tonight with her hair still in pigtails and ribbons wearing her pink Supergirl sweater Emma was called a little boy. I just really had to laugh. that's so strange! I've seen Emma in person and I can't imagine mistaking her for a boy. people are weird. Hang in there, Julie...if your mere existence annoys people that actually means you have a lot of power :-) I hope today is a better day. Sorry about your yesterday. Thanks for your willingness to share and dialogue about your journey. Your mere existence makes my world brighter.
I used to get called a boy all the time when I was Emma's age. Makeesha's right; people are weird. I hope your experiecne wasn't in Naperville, but if it was it is par for the course. I always amazes when you go into a business and they seem offended that you are there to give them money.
Don't let the goofies get you down. damn you have a lot more self control than I do. By the time the modesty police lady started in, I fear I would have been in full blown "gently mock you to your face to see how strongly I can trigger you into further stupidity" mode. i've heard of getting your back up in public but never your back out! well done you :)
as for the rest of the crappy world, blah, keep existing we need you! He with the Loudest Voice Wins Um, Julie....what happened? Nothing specific. Just sick of being always on the defense in conversations. It's kinda hard to be yourself if your always perceived as wrong automatically... I know...it gets to me sometimes too.
I don't read the Bible as much as I used to but as best I recall...didn't Jesus say it would be like this?
I think this is exactly what Brian McLaren's discussion of framing stories in his latest book is all about. When Christians become the Loud Voice it often means they have bought into the wrong story, the story that is not about the Kingdom of God but about humans with the most power/money/influence taking advantage of others to make the world a better place only for the privileged few - and worse for everyone else.
Ask Jesus how to deal with lots of people misunderstanding you...he must have figured that out... I think I can relate to what you are feeling Julie. My wife and I experienced something similar in a hyper-Calvinist church about ten years ago, where we were the only ones asking questions about concern for the poor, just how much doctrine should be treated as non-negotiable, where is the beauty in our worship, my wife with her master's degree in education couldn't teach Sunday school above sixth grade because anything beyond that would have her, a woman, instructing young "men" contra the scriptures, etc. Loud voices and/or condescending attitudes were the primary responses to our questions. I feel like I've read everything RC Sproul ever wrote, I've had him quoted at me so much. So, I can relate. As a result of that experience, we ended up in the Episcopal Church for about 7 years.
At the same time, I have another parallel response which is "what did you/we expect?" Some/most of what you describe is human nature, isn't it? Not the sole province of conservative evangelicals. If someone went to Doug Pagitt's church, Rob Bell's Mars Hill or an Emergent gathering and started gently but persistently trying to argue for a complementarian view of scripture, a more positive view of globalization, and a more logic and rationality-based faith, they would probably feel similar to how I felt in that calvinist church 10 years ago. Either condescended to, or else drowned out by loud angry voices citing A New Kind of Christian, Velvet Elvis, Everything Must Change and Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger along with a mind-numbing array of statistics and sociological data that just shut them down and left them feeling unheard and depersonalized.
When we swim upstream, we shouldn't be surprised to encounter resistance, should we? When we are knowingly going against the flow and experiencing what that feels like, in our surprise are we a little like the punked out kid with spiked orange and pink hair and a chain connecting his nose ring to his earring, who has a chip on his shoulder about why people stare at him? Karl - I know debate will happen, I want that to happen. I'm frustrated by people who are too stupid to think for themselves who never even dream of asking questions. As in discussion is good, being a mindless drone is not. At the same time, I have another parallel response which is "what did you/we expect?" Some/most of what you describe is human nature, isn't it? Not the sole province of conservative evangelicals. If someone went to Doug Pagitt's church, Rob Bell's Mars Hill or an Emergent gathering and started gently but persistently trying to argue for a complementarian view of scripture, a more positive view of globalization, and a more logic and rationality-based faith, they would probably feel similar to how I felt in that calvinist church 10 years ago. Either condescended to, or else drowned out by loud angry voices citing A New Kind of Christian, Velvet Elvis, Everything Must Change and Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger along with a mind-numbing array of statistics and sociological data that just shut them down and left them feeling unheard and depersonalized.
Karl, I'm glad you said this because it's easy to be upset with other groups for not being open to different ideas yet we can be just the same way in our own groups.
I wrote about the Range Of Acceptable Answers (ROAA) on a blog last year. I think all groups tend towards having one and rejecting answers outside it, unless they put effort into being open to different ideas than their own. "I'm frustrated by people who are too stupid to think for themselves who never even dream of asking questions. As in discussion is good, being a mindless drone is not."
I agree with that. I felt the same way in the Episcopal church encountering people who mindlessly and unquestioningly spouted the (liberal) spirit of the age and clearly had never even considered the best arguments of the other side from a fair and thoughtful perspective. Mindless drones exist in any ideological or theological camp. The Episcopal, "God is a liberal democrat" drones were no more thoughtful and open than the fundamentalist, "God is a conservative Republican" drones, just more sophisticated and faux-intellectual. It was equally hard to have meaningful discussion with either. Again, I think we're talking about a tendency in human nature rather than a unique characteristic of one "side". Helen, I like your term "Range of Acceptable Answers" and think that's a helpful concept to keep in mind.
I also think Julie's term "Loud Voices" is useful. Which voices are the Loud Voices depends to a large degree on your context. Julie:
Thanks so much for posting this. I too have often found that people will respect the "loudest voice", although this can sometimes mean different things.
For example, the "loudest voice" can sometimes be the most articulate or belong to an "expert". The loudest voice might be that which is on radio or TV...who are we mere mortals to challenge a media star?
Of course, none of this has anything to do with the truth, but it nonetheless seems to be a formula for (the loud voice's) success. Thanks Karl! I must stop speed reading... I read this sentance
"but the radio preachers tell their listeners that the emerging church is a cult where they sacrifice children and have sex with Satan (or something similar) they will believe the radio guys and condemn you to hell."
as "they will believe the radio guys and condom you to hell"
but i guess that would be having your cake and eating it :) Once again, Joel Osteen's utter failure to uphold Christian truth in an age of apostacy only further supports what is all too clear about his teaching: it is spiritually bankrupt.
Here is a link to articles our ministry has created on Osteen's heretical compromise that is anointed as "Christianity" today.
http://www.spiritwatch.org/behindsmile.htm In this Week's News I am not bothered that she made Dumbledore gay so much as I am by the way that it occurred. I could not get "Token" from South Park out of my head. It was almost as if it occurred to her that she had forgotten to put in the "Token" gay character so she said, "Hmmm... well... How bout' we make Dumbledore gay?... yeah... that works". What other characters now need to be modified after the fact? Next we will see updated versions of the books ala Star Wars/Lucas. Perhaps we can send Kyle and Stan to save the original HP manuscripts. That wasn't an issue for me. I know she had the entire backstories of all the main characters mapped out already (which may be appearing in a HP encyclopedia someday). I am just imagining her responding thinking "but of course he's gay, I've known that all along, why didn't you get it?" Alan Jacobs has chimed in with his thoughts on Rowlings' Dumbledore revelation at The American Scene.
http://theamericanscene.com/2007/10/23/the-gay-headmaster Missional Failure Thanks so much for posting and linking back to me. Much appreciated! Too bad I live on the "wrong side of town" or I'd come visit. :-) Book Review - Inspiration and Incarnation ha, I just had to read this book for school. It was alright, I recommend it for evangelicals, but I certainly disagreed with some thing in it.
A book I would recommend that is similar to this but offers a different conclusion is 'Living & Active' by Telford Work. He sort of write it in response to Enns, and I actually like it a lot better :-) Like I said I disagreed with things too and like learning from other perspectives, but this is a needed book for evangelicals who otherwise won't even engage in the conversation. Garden Harvest Well it couldn't possibly be a result of global warming. Everyone knows that's just a hoax. ;-) My memory of the summer-fall-winter transition in the Chicago suburbs: hot and humid end of summer weather lasting into mid or late September, followed by a week to ten days of mild fall weather, after which the arctic winds blow through, the leaves turn brown and fall off the trees in the space of about a day and a half, and the six-month winter has arrived. Switching Blogs? you should most definitely change. . . and wordpress can suck in all of your blogger content.
it is quite better. I just switched my blog from blogspot to wordpress and I LOVE it. I love wordpress. having tried vox, xanga, typepad, blogger and wordpress (both wordpress and self hosted), I think wordpress is the way to go (typepad users would have a coronary to hear me say that hehe they're a loyal bunch)
I used hostmysite and it's less than $50 a year for a blog account. Pennies really. They set it all up for you with wordpress installed and you can easily transfer your blogger over...wordpress even has a little instant tool deal.
the benefits of course to having a self hosted blog are plugins and being able to customize your templates as well as having your own domain if you want. But wordpress hosted blogs are pretty versatile and you can open a wordpress blog, move over your blogger blog and try it and THEN get an account with a server and your own domain. So you don't have to completely commit - you can even leave your blogger blog up and running while you play with wordpress without having to do everything all over again when you get your own server.
You CAN theoretically do static pages with blogger, you just have to create a new blog for every page and then link over that way. I did that when I had a blogger blog. It was a tad annoying but it worked.
anyway, there's my vast wealth on the subject ... I'm sort of embarrassed about how much I know about these things - it's because I have a community site, pub theology site, cohort site and have created several blogs as small business sites for clients...really truly that's why ;) I like the flexibility of self-hosted wordpress but if you don't want to pay anything to have a wordpress blog and you can't find free hosting service, then wordpress-hosted will be the way to go. wow a lot of wordpress fans out there. I think I might play around with Wordpress and see what I want to do. I just really really don't like their basic themes... I switched to wordpress and won't go back. I say do it. Julie, here's a page which handily has screenshots of some of the wordpress.com themes (scroll down to see them):
wordpress.com theme reviews
Some of my favorite themes are here and I don't think this is even the complete list of themes they offer.
If you go self-hosted, there are some very creative and different themes freely available. The blog at www.weblogtoolscollection.com lists new free themes daily (the themes are free but you have to cover the self-hosting cost as Makeesha explained). Wordpress is a treat. I actually use it for a website, rather than a blog, with the pages facility. Don't know much about the other blogs but the guys at wordpress just seem to have made everything so easy for a non-techie like me.
You can import all your blogger blog into wp and the range of themes is pretty extensive. I started on blogger and switched to wordpress self-hosted a little over a year ago.
The themes that are available for self-hosted are almost endless ... so if you're feeling limited by the wordpress themes, my guess is you're looking at .com rather than .org. Some of the themes for self-hosted are really beautiful and artsy ... and go way beyond anything in blogger.
I'm definitely a huge fan of wordpress. I toyed with the other platforms, but kept coming back to wordpress before I made the leap. I still have a number of blogs in blogger and like that, but find it very limited. It's like using word processing software vs. desktop publishing software. I can still get the job done, but I can't get fancy or have fun with it. ;-) Hi Julie!
I've set up four self-hosted wordpress blogs, including , and I love it. Plugins are such a handy feature to have. And there are tons of free theme layouts that you can easily download and install. If I recall correctly, the theme options at blogspot are pretty limited.
Chandler Christians Don't Care about Justice Julie,
I was introduced to John Perkins (the Christian one) by a good friend of mine who recently moved near Cleveland. His plan is to live a life that demonstrates the love of Christ to his community - a la Perkins... and, more importantly, a la Christ. I've enjoyed what I've read by Perkins, and I look forward to reading more. Thanks for the notice about this book... and the interesting facts that we can learn about ourselves (as Christ followers) by listening to others.
-Alan Hey Julie -
Intense comments on Amazon. Like you, I'm saddened that people in our culture do not affiliate Christians with justice. But I am not surprised. Did you read the most recent study bby the Barna Group? They interviewed thousands of young people and found that most of them associate Christians with words like "anti-homosexual," "judgmental", etc. I think we're in the middle of a post-Christendom time in our nation.
Have you heard of the new movie called, For the Bible Tells Me So? I went to see it last night here in Los Angeles. I found it extremely fascinating - definitely worth it. I am a little worried that people will not have opportunities to discuss the movie after seeing it - because it raises such critical issues about the status of the American church and its perspectives on homosexuality. The film makers make a point that the root of homophobia stems from the fear and hatred of women's sexuality. Very interesting stuff. I think Amazon should do something along the lines of "disambiguation" with the product descriptions of books by authors with the same name. They're not helping their own bottom line if there is this confusion.
Yes, it is disturbing that people should think Christians would automatically not be interested in justice issues. Quite a turn in 1500 years, from when the church was known for caring for the material needs of those who not only "belonged", but also of those who did not "belong".
On the other hand, it was reading "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" with my book group (Christians all) that was the "last straw" that drove me to de-register as a Republican.... I'm currently a "decline to state affiliation"- disillusioned with the system that takes (mostly) well-intentioned people who want to serve their country and turns them into re-election robots.
Politics is the only thing about which I'm cynical.
Dana Ames This post has been removed by a blog administrator. Sorry IndyChristian/Neil for removing your comment. For some reason it just really messed up the blog format. Here was the text -
Julie... Thanks for the post. And yeah, it's a sad comment re the American 'Church'. But I hold great hope in the growing number of prayer-care-share Christ-followers connecting and effectively 'reconfiguring' the Church... city by city. Visit CityReaching.org
I've added your CCDA-related post to those tagged at the recent conference.
-Neil
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