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But the results have been sad. Very sad and depressing. I expected the healthy debate between the complimentarians and the egalitarians (if you don't know those terms, lucky you), but not the affirmation of sexism I have seen amoung many men. Over the past couple of weeks I have read posts (by men) who say-
- that since God is sexist we need to redeem sexism from the negative light it has been painted in. It is a good thing we need to affirm.
- that if you belive in the equality of women you must be worshiping a false god
- that Galations 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." only refers to salvation. We are all saved through Jesus, but that it has no bearing on culture. So slavery, racism, and sexism are not things the Bible speaks against.
- that because women were offended by "he-who-must-not-be-named", they are now huge fans of his stuff
- that although they might affirm the equality of women, it is not an important enough of an issue to actually do anything about because Jesus didn't focus much on it.
It seems like this whole issue has just made it possible for the closet sexists in the christian community to come out and say what they really think. I had hoped that as the church we were beyond that, but I obviously was very very naive. What I found even sadder than the rampent sexism in the church were the numerous responses of non-christians who upon encountering this display of christian sexism stated that they were reaffirmed in their decision to reject the church and wanted nothing to do with people who were so backward and hateful towards women.
there is something very very wrong here.
Labels: Gender Issues
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At 11/22/2006 10:03:00 AM,
LydiaBut the results have been sad. Very sad and depressing.
In some ways the church is (IMO) 50 years behind mainstream culture.
These sound like the sort of things one would expect to hear in the mid-50's.
I've heard similarly disturbing things about people who are GLBT (and people of other faiths, and people of no faith, and women who become single mothers, etc etc) from christians.
God help us. -
Julie,
I found you through your posts when reading the debate going on at Jesus Creed. I find this whole debate a bit bizarre. Having long ago made the move to the view that our calling to ministry is determined by the Spirit of God moving in our lives, not an arbitrary set of guidelines, I agree with you that there is much reactionism out there. The good news is that the President of my denomination -- Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) -- is a very capable woman, Sharon Watkins, and the Episcopalians elected a woman as Presiding Bishop! So, there is good news out there! -
At 11/22/2006 02:20:00 PM,
LutheranChikA Delurking RevGalBlogPal here.
I am so glad that my denomination officially affirms the equality of women and men both as loved children of God created in God's image and as full participants in the life of the Church. I would find it impossible to be a part of a faith community that didn't affirm this, frankly. It's interesting to me that the emergent movement -- admittedly from my own rather uninformed perspective, as someone who lives in a rural area -- seems to have such a socially conservative streak in it. I applaud women in the movement for pushing it in the direction of equity and inclusion.
(How's that for chutzpah, for a new visitor? LOL) -
At 11/22/2006 04:56:00 PM,
Julielutheranchick - welcome and thanks for your thoughts. I do find it weird that there is such a sexist bent to a lot of the emergent people, but it is a very diverse movement. most people in it want to cling to ultra-conservative views while sporting cool hair cuts and trendy worship services. they could care less about fresh theology and justice issues.
but (with the danger of quoting here) truth takes time -
At 11/22/2006 05:22:00 PM,
Mike ClawsonWell, it does depend on how you define the emerging church movement. Frankly, I barely consider those stylistic emergents to be part of the movement anymore. Their approach to worship styles may become mainstream eventually, but still not much will have changed if they're not open to rethinking their theology too.
And a lot of these comments that Julie quoted are from theOoze, which used to be a fairly emergent place, but really not so much anymore - at least not the message boards. Don't judge the whole EC by these people, they're really not representative. -
The reason most churches are sexist is that the Bible is sexist. Although it is contradictory, anyone familiar with both testaments won't help noticing it. The Eva story is quite striking as is the rest of it. Is it just a coincidence that Jesus was male and so were all his apostles?
Being the child of the Devil, I just think that the Bible reflects history and humankind should move on. Men and women should have equal rights whatever old books and old idiots say. -
Men-Woman relationship is excellent! However some EC people are trying to say that the act of "Homosexuality" is OK, if that's what get's you goin'...
Genesis 19:4-7
Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight. Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally”
So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him, and said, “Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly!...
Here is what the NT says in Judas:
But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh (Homosexuality), are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. (Type of rebelion again Moses - The Law of God)
After reading the Bible, what do you think? -
At 12/05/2006 11:17:00 PM,
JulieWhy? Because you sound more like a caricature than a real person. Because if you are real, your words are meaningless unless I have a name and a personality behind them. Why would I even consider believing in something that you are too ashamed of to even sign your name to?
Why? Because the church is a community and people should introduce themselves. Because then I might understand why you are so afraid to actually think, engage ideas, answer actual questions, and be a real person instead of a rude, judgemental, brainwashed voice that is more interested in hate speech and being right than in the words of Christ and truth.
Jesusy' Anne Lamott
Chatting with a born-again paradox
Agnieszka Tennant
She came to Jesus just as she was—a foul-mouthed, bulimic, alcoholic drug addict. One week after having an abortion, she surrendered to him in her very own version of the sinner's prayer, punctuated with the f-word.
When I recently called Anne Lamott—the funny, nutty, fast-talking, born-again author whose books include Bird by Bird, Operating Instructions, Traveling Mercies, and most recently Blue Shoe—the same earthy candor came through.
To be sure, Lamott is a hard-core liberal. I disagree with her on many fronts, for example with her belief that personhood doesn't start at conception. Yet, deeper within her than her loud liberalism is a reality that has won her many evangelical readers: a zany ardor for Jesus. Lamott's fascination with all things Jesusy (a term she might as well have copyrighted) must be the reason why she is a mixed bag of hilariously antagonistic affections.
Let me count the ways.
Every morning, before she gets out of bed, Lamott reads meditations by Emmet Fox (1886-1951), the progressive New Thought preacher who is popular in Alcoholics Anonymous circles. "You want to buy his book Sermon on the Mount today; it will change your life. I promise," she says. She looks up daily Scripture passages in Zondervan's Women of Faith Study Bible. The conservative publisher puts out "hundreds of books that I love," including If You Want to Walk on Water, You've Got to Get Out of the Boat by Willow Creek Community Church's teaching pastor, John Ortberg.
A commentator for NPR and a columnist at the freethinking Salon.com, Lamott shops "all the time" at Christian bookstores. She calls herself a "bumper-sticker Christian." The two bumper-sticker sayings she lives by are: "God loves you just the way you are but he loves ...