thank you.

Having a voice isn’t a power play. It is a call for respect and an opportunity to share perspectives that are being ignored.

Yes, exactly.

I keep running across people who think that, while it's ok for men to have a voice, women who try to speak up are sinning (or in danger of sinning) by trying to "grab power."

While I agree that it isn't constructive for Christians to spend our time fighting over the balance power, I believe even more strongly that we shouldn't use "don't fight for power!" as an excuse to preserve the status quo and that the use of this idea should be applied to everyone....not just the women.

Stepping off my soapbox now ;)

I really enjoyed reading this post. I can see how it must be frustrating than the women are not involved in the emergent conversation while their husbands deeply are.

Even though I am not deep into the emergent movement, as a woman in ministry I can relate to some of your frustrations. My mom was in ministry back in the day when pastor's wives were expected to serve coffee, cook meals, and keep the house clean. They were set back from the front lines of ministry. Thankfully things have changed (at least in our denomination). For the first time this November, our denomination is sponsoring a Pastor's Spouse Retreat. We do have a few women ministers, but it will be mostly be wives of male pastors who are a part of this event. There is more support and opportunities for us than ever before.

I would love to go to more discussion groups and conferences with my husband, but I find it very hard having a toddler to care for. Babysitters are expensive and our schedule does always permit my husband to stay home for more than a day. However there is a lot you can do as a stay at home mom--reading books, reading blogs/articles on the Internet, and engaging in conversations while at home. I think you and Mike do a great job of balancing a team ministry and maybe you two can serve as an encouragement to other couples.

I agree with what has been said here, but something struck me as I was reading.

Isn't is sad that in the church we are talking about "power structures" at all? I mean, shouldn't God be the real Power, and the rest of us just work together harmoniously to advance the Kingdom?

OK - just had to get that out...

I could write a book (and probably should) with all the thoughts and emotions this topic stirs in me. I'll just scratch the tip of the ice burg and share this fairly recent experience with you for now.

I suffered a huge disappointment and even some heartbreak when my own community of believers became rather polarized over the issue of the character and roles of men and women in the Body. What became the flashpoint for this division was the book, "Captivating" by John and Stasi Eldredge. To simplify the lines between the camps, it went something like this: one camp felt the book "elevated" women over men, thought the theology was sloppy and even "heretical", and felt that any examination of the human heart was prideful and was a study of something seen simply as deceitful and depraved. The other camp found the book tremendously healing. They found it affirming to discover that women were designed by God to have unique and specific qualities and that God delights in them. It also seemed to explain how we get disconnected from our design and why women have sufferered so over the centuries. The leadership of the church actually considered banning the book from the resource center! Instead, they have enclosed in it a warning of sorts. "Read at your own risk".

I think what the whole thing unearthed is a deep-seated resentment of women. In fact, ironically, it seemed to affirm what the Eldredges were saying in a loud and clear voice! And those who hold this, still don't seem aware of it. "Wild at Heart", by John Eldredge was written first and was about men and their special design and heart for God. That book was widely accepted and never the source of so much scrutiny and reactivity in our community. So, it leaves one to conclude that at least unconsciously, there are some attitudes about women and men that need examination in our community. Sadly, that is not likely to happen.

I agree with the comment about God being The Power and as such, we are all given power through the Holy Spirit. It is not so much about fighting over some limited resource, some limited quantity of power, I think, so much as maybe men and women understanding how God's power manifests in them, in each individual through the unique combination of gifts and experiences and talents that God has chosen to bless them with. And it is our duty to respond to God's generosity by using His gifts for His kingdom. In a sense, we each need to become aware of our "own" power and be responsible for it. When we run into some person or group that would aim at oppressing this power, it is up to us individually or as a group to decide how to respond. Sometimes a situation might call for submission (in itself, a powerful act...just refer to Christ), a choosing to give away our power, if you will and sometimes, we might find it best to be assertive. In either way, maybe we are managing our power...choosing how to express it.

I think discussion is needed but I can see where it might not feel safe for some, given these kinds of experiences do not appear to be rare. Ideally, maybe there are archetypes of male and female that work in complimentary fashion both internally (finding the balance within ourselves) and externally and corporately (letting the complimentary nature of male/female express itself) in the Body. I imagine that each woman and man finds their own unique balance across the archetypes, based on their life experiences, circumstances and phase in life (along with personality structure and so forth). And maybe this is "God-given". Seems to me, if man AND women were made in God's image, then God's image may embody both male and female archetypes. Perhaps each of us, in our varied permutations of the male and female, reflect God's own image, which may be complex as the many facets of a well-cut diamond. And if this is so, we might want to embrace it all, come to some better understanding and acceptance of our "true nature" in order to better understand our God.

I'm rambling and ask for "mercy"!. Thanks for listening.

Hi Julie,

I always enjoy reading your posts. :)

Just some thoughts as I read....

There does seem, in my mind, some irony that I can't really express well - over the way the emerging women approach the conversation. As I said, I can't express it well - can't put my finger on it...but there's just 'something' thats tugged at me ever since I became a part of this. I think part of it is the focus - as another commenter wrote - about talking about 'power'..in a similar vein, I keep thinking about the way 'we' talk about getting in on men's blogs and getting men to link to our blogs, etc. Things like that, and I can't help but think -- if we just follow God and seek HIM, with our voice...then the rest will follow. Those who need to hear will hear and so what if the focus of EW becomes other women and it is a somewhat seperate ministry - maybe thats part of God's call for EW. I dunno....I think I agree with you that we just keep networking and finding our voice with each other - seeking God above all.

I think you ask some good questions about the women who stayed home and the women tending their kids....I think we should keep in mind that they may have a different call and a different voice. The may worship and follow God by not being part of the EM conversation.....maybe the do discuss it with their husbands and maybe that is fine for them. It would be interesting to see what results from talking more with them - I wonder, did you exchange contact info with any of them? Is there a way you could develop some discussion with them via email? Put out a call for a 'survey' on the EV blogspace asking men who attending to ask their wives to complete some questions for us?

Again, I really enjoy your posts, thanks so much for the time, thought, energy you put in to all of this.

wow thanks for the response here - some great things to think about. I'll respond more in depth later.

Hi
When I was a little girl, many years ago, I told my Grandmother that I wanted to preach God’s word. My grandmother created this “pulpit space” for me using a chair to stand on and a bookcase as the actual pulpit. My grandmother would sit and listen to my “sermons” for hours, giving me a great sense of joy and accomplishment.

Around the age of 14 I went to my pastor to discuss my desire to teach God’s word. I imagined he would rejoice with me in being led to the ministry. I imagined wrong. He thought it was “cute” that a young girl would want to be a pastor. But that women were not allowed to preach to men. It just wasn’t done. After the meeting was over, I left his office full of confusion, sadness and shame. How could I have been such a fool to think that God would want to use women in ministry!?

I’ve carried those feelings with me as I’ve grown into adulthood. I’ve tried to fit in with the traditional conservative church. Never really daring to say much about anything for fear I would be denied my voice. Secretly, deep down inside, I still thought women could and should do more in God’s service. But I figured it was just me, my faulty thinking somehow. Finding this blog has fanned that little spark of hope that has refused to blow out. There are others out there who think it’s ok for women to want to add to the discussion. Who have heard the call and answered it.

So thank you. Thank you for making me feel a little less shamed. I will continue to read your blog and pray for you all.
-gina-

Gina - thank you so much for sharing. There have been so many women who have been told to deny who they are and to ignore God's calling. To think of all the sparks that have been put out is a depressing thought. And even still there are the voices that condemn, question, or just talk around the issue as if it is merely a theology exercise forgetting that we are real women with real passions and feelings. I hope we can all encourage one another. And the the easy access to blogs perhaps more women can finally see that there are other women out there who have similar callings and are choosing to actually answer that call! Thanks you again for sharing your story.

Sue I agree, it is sad that we have to talk about power structures in the church at all. So how do we dismantle them without being consumed by them?


doxallo I agree that the women who stay at home with their kids may indeed have a different calling. I'm just wondering if they have actually been given the opprotunity to enter the conversation at all? And if they have not - how is the disparity between their and their husband's faith affecting their marriage? And I don't have info - we all assumed that at the end we would get a blogroll/email list like they have done in the past, but that never happened.

Nancy thanks for your thoughts. I really liked what you had to say about recognizing and reflecting all aspects of God's nature. I was fasinated to read your experience with Captivating. My experience involved controversy, but in the opposite direction. I found that there were the women who loved it as being a refreshing affirmation of who they are and then there were women who disdained it for relying too much on western stereotypes of women. Interesting how the points of view were so extreme. I was wondering - you said that there might be certain occasion when confronted with a situation where someone is using oppressive power that one should just submit. What sorts of situationsmight you see those as being?

Julie: I would have felt far more positive over the sort of reactions/differences of opinion over "Captivating" that you experienced than what happened in our community. It evolved into something that has caused me to look around and see if there is not a better fit for me elsewhere. Problem is, I live in rural Wisconsin. Good thing is, I can head into cyberspace, if need be. Ultimately, what developed in my community, was that church leadership (mainly this came from the pastors) and those that objected to the book on the grounds of it being "unbiblical" described themselves as "more discerning", grounded in the Truth and wise than those who enjoyed the book and found it helpful. Since they were "responsible" for the spiritual well-being of the congregation, we needed to accept their thoughts on the topic and "obey". Eventually, as a congregation, we were told that the pastors were the ones with the education and Biblical knowledge and were in a sense, the final authority on what was "true" in the Bible and what isn't. So, we go to them with questions and accept what they say as "the truth". Oh, and by the way, our questions are "welcome". There is no real way to reason with this, try as some of us did. Please excuse the over-use of quotations here. " : ) "

So, using the example above, and in an attempt to answer your excellent question, one could choose to submit to the line of thought that those with more theological training should be given the power to determine what is true and not true about the Word. Submission in this context, would be about agreeing with a line of authority and upholding unity in a community. I liked your question about this and truly find it a challenge to come up with other illustrations. Generally speaking, I think of submission as more of a power exchange, as it were. I give away some power for a higher good, which ultimately empowers me. (again, think Christ. He submitted to the cross and we count this a victory) I'll certainly be thinking on this one some more because when you add the element of oppression, it complicates things. There are groups that could be described as "powerless", so if you have no power to exchange can you even choose to submit? ...yeesh, if you care to, please do share your own thoughts on the topic.

if we just follow God and seek HIM, with our voice then the rest will follow. Those who need to hear will hear and so what if the focus of EW becomes other women and it is a somewhat seperate ministry - maybe thats part of God's call for EW

I understand what you're saying, and I agree that we should all be following the voice of God.

A question (and a rabbit-trail :) ):

How separate is too separate? Yes, there are some very real between and among us. And yes, there is a time and a place for ministries geared to a specific group.

But Western culture is already very divided along gender, class, culture, and race lines, especially when it comes to way churches compose themselves (i.e. many churches have separate bible study groups for teens, young adults, married couples, singles, children, most churches are comprised of people who come from the same background)- is this really something we should be encouraging further?

Oops, that should read "Yes, there are some very real differences between and among us."

Lydia, et al: I think I track with this notion of minimizing the divisions. I don't recall and stories of Jesus separating out the women from the men (or along any other demographic) in his teaching or fellowshipping. He welcomed ALL. The more we compartmentalize, the more narrow our view of God and life with God will become, I should think. (I can't believe it, I'm done in about 5 sentences. HURRAH!)

Nancy I'm sorry to hear how things played out in your church. I personally find it frightening to submit to someone who says they have the "right" answers. I'm all for respecting and learning from tradition and I do conceed to those who are educated in certain matters (doctors for example!), but I also fully promote thinking for oneself. Learning from others is one thing, mindlessly accepting someone else's words as truth is indoctrination. We are told to test the spirits and I believe that we should never stop testing what we hear, searching for the truth, and making our faith our own - even if that means questioning the status quo or those "in power" over us (which brings us back to the power discussion).

I think that a church can claim that certain interpretations of the bible are "right" in their eyes and perhaps expect the people in the church to agree in order to be part of the church - but that church seems to be to be unwilling to grow or get closer to God. And then what happens if a person with more education and training comes up with an idea that the church disagrees with? Will they submit to that idea?

If we were not willing to question authority we could very easily be decieved by false teachers. If questioning had never occured then Protestants wouldn't even exist. Theology is an evolving thing - changinng as our language and cultural philosophy changes. We have to contextualize and understannd theology in our time and to do that we have to question what has come before.

So I do find it very very dangerous to give away my mind, my voice, and my freedom to submit to another persons opinions about God and the bible. I will learn in community and dialogue with and from others, but I can't forfeit my call to work out my faith with fear and trembling.

Julie: Yeah, as I quoted in a different post, "Theology is faith trying to understand itself". I agree, it seems natural, since we can't even begin to think we could know everything about God, to find our theology evolving. The community I come from is lately promoting "systematic theology" as a means for helping us all avoid the "false teachers". I just felt intuitively that this was not for me and have not taken the class. Anything that smacks of "program" makes me uneasy these days.

I appreciate your thoughts on the whole process. I think the folks there honestly mean well but they don't see the arrogance in their stance. And because I see it, I just can't abide by any of it. What keeps coming to my mind was how Jesus made disciples out of people who were not even considered good enough to study under the Rabbis and then challenged the "scholars", the Pharisees, etc, telling them "Whoa to you!" and confronting them publicly. I think there are parallels but you can't force the folks involved to see it. I can stay and try and work around it and wait and see what happens or I can move on. I've been there 12 years, so this is not an easy thought due to some of the relationships I have there. But inside me, I feel restless and longing for more. Understand?

Lydia, I am famous for 'rabbit trails'.

And yes, this may be a topic for a different post - a thread all its own somewhere....about the 'divisions' in America - or the west. I'd be interested in hearing responses to a topic of saaay, "The Great Divide" maybe a some snappy sub-title about where people are most affected or confronted with this divide.

In this case, I really was only speaking directly to gender -- not race, age, etc.

ALTHOUGH, I just posted on someone's blog and said to them something to the effect of:

If I was giving a talk about suicide to health professionals I'd tailor my talk differently than the talk I'd give to families of suicide victims. Likewise if I'm talking to a room of 5 year olds about cancer it would be presented far differently than if I were speaking to colleagues. Part of emergent talks about engaging a post-modern culture, tailoring the conversation.

I think there are times when homogenous groups are necessary to be 'effective'. And there are times when bringing variables together is effective and in fact healthy for all of us.

"I'm just wondering if they have actually been given the opprotunity to enter the conversation at all? And if they have not - how is the disparity between their and their husband's faith affecting their marriage? "

Julie, I am not sure how you are seeing this. I am presuming they knew where their husbands were going, so they know 'of' emergence and that if they have an interest they can get themselves to a library, the internet, or ask their husband about it. Presuming again that the participants are all 'reasonably' 'christian' and aren't chaining their women to the bed or stove or something.

I'm just not sure how you are viewing this. How they might be 'prevented' from being a part of the conversation or from learning about emergence and applying it to their own walk/faith/life.

I am sure you've thought this through more than me, so any insight you have is appreciated. :)

Yes most of the women "know" about the emerging church. (although there was one guy at the Gathering who was having to hide his interest in the conversation from his wife and her very conservative family). By opprotunity I was thinking more about time and relavant language. The men who have the time to read the books, blog, go to cohorts, go to conferences... do they offer their wives the same time? On top of that do they watch the kids enough so that their wives have enough "breaks" that a chance at a spare moment isn't spent merely in a vegetable state in front of the TV instead of having the energy and brain capacity left to think? And I don't care if the men work and the women are stay at home moms - if the guys have the time for it, they had better be giving their wives equal time and opprotunity for personal growth.

As for the relevant language. Are the guys talking about this on a complex theological/philosophical level. If their wife isn't educated in those fields how can she converse with them. She is left out of the conversation because of a language barrier. Do they try and translate the emerging conversation into things that she is interested in. Our attempt to make it practical to her? As an intellectual person, it shocks me to hear all the women who refue to think about their faith or read books because they are just not into that. they remain in the status quo believing what they have been told their whole lives without examinig it fully. But if their husbands approach their faith in fresh and emerging ways - they will end up having two different types of faith. He can't share his spiritual thoughts with her without being called too intellectual or heretical because he sounds different. And her faith seems shallow and unexamined to him. They can't be spiritual partners in this way.

so while I think a lot of christian women need to get over the excuses they give not to think, I wonder if the emergig men are doing everything they possibly can to include their wives (and friends) in this conversation.

deep sense of sadness, and i am appalled - what a crock of dookie in the toilet. you've got my daughter in your little cult - yes you do. of course, she's an adult. so i'm thinking that speaks for itself. to think that my daughter - shanna - has no better sense and no sense of self than to fall for this stuff. love does stange things though. she's following that dan into this mess, from all appearances. yes, my name is cindy showalter and i want you all to know i am praying diligently for shanna. and i am also praying for all of you!

Cindy Showalter,

Pray that she is released from this demonic stronghold of Antinomianism/Nicolaitanes - Please go to this site. This is not new. The Apostle John wrote about the Emerging Church but under a different name. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaitanes

You've got it right. It's a devious sect full of deception and New Age.

if you want to call followers of Jesus Christ a cult that is your right. But I pray that you will stop making false judgements and help support the church united instead of calling names.

Talk to your daughter. Learn from each other. Understand her faith instead of writing evil things about her on other people's websites.

Gnostisism and philosophy (Emerging Movement), where everybody "creates" their own truth to suit their lifestyle is NOT Christianity. Cristianity MUST be subject to the ABSOLUTE authority of God's Word. Jesus Christianity does not allow (hybrid doctrines). Christianity is believing, accepting and embracing the Absolute truth of of the Bible. God's irrefutable Word. Emerging Chruch is none of this. I've already chatted with many EC members and "everybody embraces dialog, conversation" as a way of establishing their own opinions and truth. God's Word is absolute, he does not need "your opinion". -- HE IS THE CREATOR.

Lydia, someone has to bullhorn the Truth before it's too late. Once you die, it's either HEAVEN or HELL. I do not wan't anybody, again, anybody posting on this website to go to hell. There are no second truths, only one. The Bible. This is why sharing perspectives, with the itention of changing it's meaning to acomodate it to one's own cranked up opinion is a violation of God's Word. EC is not Christianity, it's a new form of gnosticism embracing some Christian symbols.

Gnosticism was a heresy that taught that we are saved by believing the right things, i.e. that it is our knowledge that saves us, rather than God's grace.

And then you say: "Christianity is believing, accepting and embracing the Absolute truth of of the Bible."

Hmmm... so you're saying that we're saved by believing the right things, by possessing the correct knowledge of the Bible?... And which one of us is the gnostic here?

you can believe lies about the emerging church if you feel like it. Whatever makes you feel good in your judgementilism. I personally care about truth and have studied it and know it is true christianity.

Honey, I HAVE talked to my daughter, Shanna. She goes to your little gatherings, then goes to her blog and critiques you all, much like she does her Pentecostal family. She really does NOT even believe in God - she wants to keep this Dan as her boyfriend and wishes he would marry her. He won't - he's been burned by marriage, so Shan is just a sexual convenience for him He probably beats the crude out of her pretty regularly, because Shan, in the last year or so, has had numerous broken bones, and finally slipped up the last time and said Dan broke her hand. She calls God the "sky king" and says, at times she's an atheist, other times, she just says "she so doesn't believe in anything." Wonder what you'd say if that were YOUR daughter. A group of us have been fasting and praying for Shan the last 21 days. She doesn't want our prayers, she won't come around, she's miserable, drinks a lot, and yet she's "one of you." Go figure.


At 11/07/2006 11:14:00 AM, Anonymous
deep sense of sadness, and i am appalled - what a crock of dookie in the toilet. you've got my daughter in your little cult - yes you do. of course, she's an adult. so i'm thinking that speaks for itself. to think that my daughter - shanna - has no better sense and no sense of self than to fall for this stuff. love does strange things though. she's following that dan into this mess, from all appearances. yes, my name is cindy showalter and i want you all to know i am praying diligently for shanna. and i am also praying for all of you!

At 11/15/2006 03:37:00 PM, Julie
…Talk to your daughter. Learn from each other. Understand her faith instead of writing evil things about her on other people's websites.