Tried, but Mr. Carr made me too mad. So I refused to go back. I don't have the patience or ability to wade though it all, and that's without his bullying. Unfortunately he has now spread his poison to Mike's blog....enough already. If I want to be angry and depressed I can watch the news. Tell Mike I'll be back when Carr is done being a jerk.

"I find the concept of scientific objective knowledge just as far-fetched as they find belief in God."

This is a great quote, though unfortunately I think a lot of the atheists at Hemant's site might not get what you mean and think that you're just an anti-science fundamentalist. ;)

Hi, Pastor Mike and Julie

Yes, gerbmom, I understand your feelings about that too. It's hard to have a real conversation with such things happening and it's very disturbing, regardless of one's postion in the discussion. IMHO, two opposing sides can have a civil discussion without using angry and hate-filled words.

I really feel sorry for people who have so much anger and feel so insecure about their position. Pastor Mike and I don't agree on everything, but even we found somethings we did agree on and we saw no need for fighting over our disagreements. We agreed to disagree and went on with life. :)

Hi Julie, Mike mentioned your blog over at Friendly Atheist, where he’s doing a remarkable job. I’m learning so much. I’m one of the friendly, level-headed unbelievers who just want to share understanding. You’re so right about the types from either side that drive you nuts. They drive the rest of us nuts too. There are two just awful people over there currently. One is a bitter-as-bile atheist who very well fits the internet definition of a troll, harping endlessly on the same obscure Biblical passage from which he has some private hurt that will never be healed. Then there’s his exact opposite, a Christian whose bizarre, saccharin-sweet mix of off-the-wall quotations of scripture, Barney-style love-love joy-joy, and creepy innuendos about his family relationships keep us all scratching our heads. Mike can’t figure out if he’s a fruitcake or a smartass. I’m leaning toward the former, but maybe that’s my psych background talking. It’s frustrating to have these two pests distracting and degrading the discussion.

Anyway, I had a sincere question about your statement, "I find the concept of scientific objective knowledge just as far-fetched as they find belief in God." I gather that it has something to do with post-modernism. Mike and the rest of the gang are currently in a lengthy multilateral discussion about that. I innocently started it by asking about it. Honestly, I didn’t know what a can of worms I was opening. I’ve read Mike’s article about post-modernism but now there are so many conflicting opinions. Some of it is over my head but at least it’s polite.

As Mike said I’m one of the atheists who don’t get what you mean, but if I promise not to think you’re an anti-science fundamentalist, could you help me understand what you mean by your statement? I don’t find belief in God “far fetched,” I just don’t believe. Elvis living with Sasquatch aboard a UFO that frequently visits a truck stop in Schenectady I’d find far fetched, but God, no.

I understand if this is too much of a bother. You’re busy with career and family, and it’s really okay to pass on it, no problem. I just thought that your take on it might help me understand parts that Mike’s angle misses.

hey Richard - thanks for stopping by and thanks for the question.

You're right, my statement is a reflection of a more postmodern view of the universe. It's not that I don't like science or make use of science, but that I question the concept of anyone having objective knowledge.

Too often I hear people talk about science as if it is this absolute entity untouched/uninfluenced by human opinions which therefore makes it more true, more reasonable, or more authoritative than anything else. My issue is that all of our understandings of the world are mediated through our experiences. Everything we study/learn/experience is affected by our everything else we have encountered in life. So everything is subjective to our lenses of the world. (subjective does not mean false or wrong, just that it is relative to something)

How scientific experiments are carried out, how observations occur, and what interpretations are given are all subjective things. There have been enough paradigm shifts in scientific theory to easily demonstrate this. When enough scientists get convinced of a theory when a critical mass of them believe that the evidence points to a particular interpretation/implication then science changes.

My point is that I see science (or history for that matter) as having as much interpretation, opinion, and need to place belief in a certain set of assumptions as faith does. And I don't see that as a bad thing, just the way it is.

Richard, I very much appreciated what you contributed to Mike's posts at Hemant's blog. I have learned to play games of visual leap-frog on reply threads like that, and your name on a comment indicates a safe play to land.

I'm interested in this phrase from your comment here (thanks for asking - I wanted Julie to expound also).

One is a bitter-as-bile atheist who very well fits the internet definition of a troll, harping endlessly on the same obscure Biblical passage from which he has some private hurt that will never be healed.

I think that one of the concepts that keeps me following the divine through Christianity is the message that no one of us is irredeemable. We have all, in fact, been redeemed already. If a value were to be put on us, our price tags would read: "1 son of God." I agree with your analysis of the bitten-as-bile atheist but I also live with hope that he will someday realize his value in this universe, which will lead to a healing of that hurt. That hope can occasionally persuade me to love the asshole.

Thanks for your open-mindedness. I hope you don't mind my throwing two cents in as a result of one of your sentences.

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PrincessMax, I’m honored that you find my comments a safe place to land. That really warms my heart. It’s always a pleasure to meet positive, inclusive people like you, Mike, Julie, and Hemant. I hope along with you that our bitter mutual acquaintance finds a way out of his pain.

Maybe people such as you and I can work from opposite ends of a problem, a conflict or a person in pain, coaxing and soothing from our own perspectives until we meet in the middle having alleviated a little more human suffering. Whether they go toward believing or not believing, to me all that matters is that suffering has been relieved.

I don't remember where I picked it up but I try to live by the maxim that a person needs love the most when they appear to deserve it the least.

I hope to encounter you again in our wanderings in Blogaria.